South Bend Scandal

Host: Welcome back. Today we’re joined by a very special guest.

Brad: Hi, Josh. Great to be here today.

H: That’s right, folks. And if you don’t know who this is — because he has no social media and rarely makes press appearances (laughter) — it’s Brad Stevens, current coach of the Boston Celtics and subject of one of America’s weirdest scandals (laughter). 

Producer: On top of that, one of the only scandals where the white man fielding questions isn’t an objectively bad guy! (laughter)

B: Well, thanks for that introduction, guys.

Producer: It’s us who should be thanking you, Brad.

H: Okay, Sam, why don’t you get back to whatever it is your job is and I can handle the talking (laughter). 

P: You’re right, you’re right, I have plenty to do to make sure you sound good on the back end. (laughter). It’s a thankless job. (waits) But before I leave, Brad, as the huge Celtics fan that I am — just how high is Tatum’s ceiling?

B: That’s a hard question, because Jayson Tatum is already such an important player in our starting lineup. I think Tatum’s potential is in his own hands. The level he’s at - it comes down to his decision-making, and when he isn’t shooting off the dribble, when he’s attacking the basket, when he’s playing great switchable defense, there’s no one who can match that. But when he starts pulling up early in the shot clock and settling in the midrange, that’s when he stops being even the best wing on his own team. 

H: Well, you’ve got Brad going off in a different direction than we need him to go (laughter). 

H: So after that warmup question, let’s get serious. A few weeks ago, President Pete Buttegieg said that he was the coach of Butler University Men’s Basketball in the early 2010s. We all thought you were the one coaching Butler then. 

B: Yup, that’s right. And I can see why - we do look alike (laughter).

H: So where were you while Pete was coaching the Bulldogs, and when did you step into that role?

B: I was in Indiana at the time, but I actually came from Turkey. 

H: Were you born there? Or when did you move there? What’s the story on that?

B: I was born there. And I started playing basketball — all sports, really — at a young age.

H: So what brought you to Indiana?

B: A trade.

H: A trade? (laughs) Okay, let’s backtrack a little. What were you doing before you got traded.

B: Well, beginning in the Soviet era, all these European countries were trying to grow the game of basketball there to try and put together a league as good as the NBA. Youth basketball programs got huge government subsidies and were watched closely by government officials. So my childhood felt like I was born with a basketball in my hands (laughter).

H: So, kind of a nation building thing? (B: mmhmm). H; you must have been doing basketball hours every day.

B: That’s exactly right. I was doing basketball, not just playing. I was mapping out plays, giving pep talks.

H: So eventually, given that you’re a coach and never played on the pro level, the government must have taken you off of the player track and put you on the coaching track (laughter).

B: Exactly. I could shoot, but I wasn’t much of a player.

H: Who were some of your role models, as players?

B: I didn’t get to see him play much, but I had a huge Bill Russell poster in my dorm room. The NBA wasn’t as careful in its stats-counting back when he played, which gives him a little bit of mysticism. Who knows how good he really was?

H: Well, he did win 11 championships. That’s probably a solid indicator (laughter).

B: Well yes, but how many blocks did he have per game? How many rebounds? How many steals? Plus all the stats that you can just never quantify, like how much you want to win and how much of a team player you are.

H: That’s true. And I know how much you care about the intangibles now that you’re with the Celtics.

B: Oh, absolutely. And one of those intangibles, as I was talking to your friend about earlier, is good decision making. It can account for massive point swings over the course of a game. 

H: So, to recap: you’re being groomed to be a coach for the Turkish national team. You love Bill Russell’s game. Now what?

B: So one day, my coaches tell me to pack my stuff and head to the airport.

H: So then did the American government make a trade between you and Turkey?

B: I guess you could call it a trade.

H: Please expand on that (laughter).

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B: So I was struggling in the Turkish system. My ceiling, to them, was just not that high. So they cut me from their training program.

H: They didn’t try to shop you around? (To audience:) And folks, this might sound strange to you— but these European basketball leagues often traded their young talent so they could eventually play on the new country’s national team, despite not being born there.

B: Exactly. But you have to make these trades before any player involved is over 16. That’s so guys like Kyle Lowry and Tracy McGrady couldn’t play for the Canadian national team, despite playing on the Toronto Raptors for a time. Does that make sense?

H: Absolutely. So the question remains: were there any trade talks involving you?

B: No, they didn’t think I could get them much in return. So I could go wherever I wanted, and I chose to come to America.

H: I see your definition of ‘trade’ is pretty loose (laughter).

B: Yes, it might be.

H: So you come to America - Indiana, presumably.

B: Yes. I knew Indiana was a basketball hotspot. I finished up high school, and then I worked odd jobs while I tried to get a coaching job. I was trying to get an assistant position at Indiana State, Indiana Bloomington, Purdue.

H: All colleges with a rich basketball history.

B: Which might explain why they turned me down. (laughter)

H: So what changed?

B: I had this one job as a truck driver, which took me all around the Midwest. And one day, I drive past Butler University, this little school. 

H: And did you get an interview?

B: Yes. They told me they have some good recruits coming in, and it’s a well-respected school by high school players in the state. I told them I’d try to grow that reputation to the entire Midwest.

H: And they offered you a job?

B: Yes. But that’s where it gets really weird.

H: Yeah, hasn’t been weird enough yet (laughs).

B: As I’m finishing up the paperwork for the coaching position, someone comes in and starts whispering to the guy who I did the interview with. I learned after that Pete Buttegieg, who was some state celebrity and who was running for Mayor of South Bend, wanted to be the coach that year. And they were going to give the job to him. 

H: That must have been upsetting, to get that chance taken away.

B: Exactly. But they tell me, keep filling out the paperwork. Pete wants to keep a low profile here, and have this job be just for him and the players - not some national media hub of attention.

But I said, won’t everyone be a little suspicious when they see someone who looks a lot like Pete coaching this team under a fake name? And they said, don’t worry, he looks a lot like you (laughs).

H: So it was pretty lucky for Pete that you’re his doppleganger.

B: Yes. I don’t know if the guys interviewing me for the job knew in advance, or if everyone just got lucky (laughs).

H: So what happened the next two seasons?

B: Pete led them to back-to-back championship games. It was really impressive.  

H: What was your role? 

B: I wasn’t a part of the team, and I had to keep a low profile - if one Brad Stevens shows up in, like Louisiana, and the other is coaching against Valparaiso, then people are going to ask questions (laughter). 

H: So let's rewind for a second — what were the specifics of the deal you signed.

B: Like I said, I couldn't be around the team, and basically had to lock myself away during the season. In exchange, I got a portion of Pete's salary from Butler, and whenever Pete decided to move on from Butler, I'd take over, and it would look like I was coaching them all along.

H: Why did you take the deal?

B: Well, it seemed nice at the time. I'd get paid to do nothing for a little while, and then I'd get to coach a Division 1 basketball team. I'd get credit for all the success Pete had as coach, and even if he never won a game, well, we're a small school in a tough conference, so no big deal.

H: And Pete decided to move on - when?

B: Pete won two national runner-ups, first when he was campaigning and then while mayor. Right before fall practices of his third season started, Pete was called into active duty with the Navy, which would make him miss the entire season, and then he just said, forget it, I’ll end on a high note. We’ve come a long way, but my best players are leaving now. That's when I stepped in.

H: So you coached at Butler for a while. And it looks like you made the tournament quite a few more times. 

B: Yes, but never got as far as Pete did with the team. He knows the game well.

H: Then how did you make the move to the Celtics?

B: A government actually got involved there, a little bit. (laughter)

H: I bet you hope that’s for the last time.

B: I do. (Laughs).

B: So the Celtics had this player. Enes Kanter. He was from Turkey, and he had this big feud with the Turkish government.

H: Over what? 

B: Well, he just doesn’t like the pattern of human rights abuses there. But the Turkish government hates him too.

H: Why?

B: Well, he hates Erdogan, and they’d probably lock him up if they could. But they also felt like they screwed up by letting me go to America, where, in their eyes, I had just revitalized the program at Butler. 

H: Because they thought that you were Pete in those first two seasons.

B: Yes. And ever since they watched ‘me’ have all that success at Butler, they decided to take a close look at their scouting department. No more mistakes.

H: Enes Kanter got through, though. He was certainly a mistake.

B: Exactly. He got through after Butler got to its first championship. They cut him from the program, just like they cut me. And for him, being in America kind of gave a microphone and a huge audience to his complaints about the Turkish government.

H: So the Turks were ticked off because they lost a great basketball player and critic of Erdogan for nothing in return.

B: Yes. H: So how did that bring you to the Celtics?

B: Kanter had already been on the Celtics for a few years. And right at the time when I was thinking about leaving Butler and trying something else, the U.S. was in the middle of this thing where they wanted to negatively influence public opinion about Turkey. The U.S knew I got here from there, and thought it would be nice if two ex-Turkish citizens teamed up in solidarity. It could make some kind of statement about American freedom. And we had no choice but to say, sure.

H: And that team happened to be the Boston Celtics.

B: Exactly.

H: But isn’t it ironic that America wanted to send a message about the liberty its citizens are given, by interfering in people’s lives as it did with you and Enes?

B: That’s what I thought.

H: And I think that basically sums up American foreign policy in one sentence (laughter). 

LISTEN: KRAFT DOES "TIGER KING"-STYLE INTERVIEW FROM PRISON

B: That’s certainly part of the reason I voted for Pete to be President — along with the nice relationship I built with him in Indiana. I know he wants to leave that American exceptionalism style behind.

H: Was there ever a point where you were just … up to here with him?

B: Yes — twice. It was actually recently, when I read that NYT story, and saw that people on Pete’s campaign wanted me to appear at a rally as Butler's coach, but Pete never called me about it. And then he didn’t even acknowledge me in his admittance speech. He just gave this blanket apology to everyone he might have hurt.

H: Why did that get you so upset?

B: I was doing Pete, like, the biggest favor anybody could do for anybody else by letting him impersonate me with Butler. And he returns that favor by choosing not to associate with me? What does that mean he thinks of me?

H: What do you think that means he thinks of you?

B: That I’m his dirty little secret. Or that he thinks I’d be so incompetent that I’d somehow mess the appearance up. Or both. 

H: And I bet I can guess the second point.

B: I'm sure you can.

H: The infamous phone call. 

B: That might have been my rock bottom. I did feel a little better after the pizza and wings arrived (laughs).

B: I mean, to get treated so badly by someone who I was helping, someone I thought cared about me, even just a little, really hurt me. 

H: How did you get over that? Or have you gotten over it?

B: I don't think I'll ever look at him the same way. He really tried to patch things over between the two of us after Butler got back from the tournament, but I still felt like — are you doing this because you actually care? Or do you just want to make sure I keep my mouth shut? Obviously I didn't say that, but I thought it.

H: So why did you vote for him? Knowing what you do about his character?

B: I'm a democrat. I thought that because he was a Democrat, he'd represent me best. I guess we agreed on a few things, like the end of american exceptionalism like I mentioned, but other than that, didn't think too much more about it.  

H: Wow. There you have it, everybody. Brad Stevens. He’s lived a very interesting and successful life so far, and he’s a good man.

B: Thank you, Josh. And thanks for having me.

H: But before you go, I’d love to finish with a fun question.

B: Sure.

H: What’s your favorite TV show?

B: Well, I do watch a lot of Netflix (laugh). I think it’s between Breaking Bad and BoJack Horseman.

H: Two very different shows!

B: But really, two sides of the same coin. One is about a guy who does something that is clearly bad and against the law, and he has to keep things a secret. The other is about a guy who you couldn’t put a case against, but is still always in this moral gray area. 

H: And he knows his pop culture too, folks!

B: Thanks a lot, Josh. Great telling my story to you.

H: Brad Stevens, everyone. That’s our time. Don’t forget to like and subscribe.